In the past, laminated glass was usually installed in the windshield, with side and rear windows being tempered only.
The difference is that tempered glass is per-stressed so that when it cracks, it shatters into many tiny and dull pieces. Laminated is the same thing, but with layers of plastic sandwiched with layers of tempered glass. Laminated glass will still shatter, but will be held together by the plastic layers.
In an emergency, small improvised, or purpose built tools meant to shatter tempered glass will be useless if the glass is laminated.
The problem wasn’t the glass.
The problem was using wtf touchscreen controls to shift between drive and reverse. Mrs. Chao confused the two then died.
Shitty UI kills another person. Tesla fucking up basic UI design is the real villain here.
I still blame Jeep for thinking a rotating selector was a good idea for a gear shifter. RIP Anton Yelchin.
I thought his jeep issue was that P on the dial didn’t actually guarantee the parking pawl was engaged to stop it from rolling. Separate from the lack of positive engagement with the P position, more about the physical disconnect between the two. Unless that was just the non-offensive language version of “user didn’t turn the dial all the way and our polite warning chime was too polite”
At least you can still feel the rotating Jeep shitty gear selector.
Touchscreen controls on a Tesla have no feel or feedback. It’s a touchscreen.
Sounds like both things are a problem?
I’m more inclined to blame Tesla’s electronic locks and confusing manual override before blaming the windows though
Quick, do you know which panel to remove to find the non-electronic manual override in a Tesla? Car is sinking fast and the electronics just shorted out from the lake.
But sure, tons of bad design decisions here. It’s hard to blame any one of them as the singular cause. If Tesla had easier to use manual override doors instead of electronic locks, if the windows could be broken, if the screen wasn’t a confusing touchscreen mess, etc. Etc. Lots of factors and all are the cause.
find the non-electronic manual override in a Tesla?
a Tesla? There’s a legitimate point y’all are missing where they are different per model or over time
she could have not floored it into a lake, but maybe I’m the only person that doesn’t go balls out when they’re backing out of a spot.
Accidents happen, and people panic. Maybe she thought she was pressing the breaks and made the problem worse. I highly doubt anyone would do it intentionally.
I don’t know about you, but in these parts we spin the gear selector to random, floor it and yell “JESUS TAKE THE WHEEL!”
Hertz stopped offering Tesla rentals because Teslas are designed to go balls out when the pedal is lightly touched and too often that involves straight into a wall or a lake
One pedal braking makes this a bit tricky for people who are not used to it and/or panicking. You spend decades of your life having a seperate “go” and “stop” pedal, and then suddenly they’re the same one. You have your foot over the accelerator, lift a bit and feel the deceleration as if you’re pressing the brake.
Suddenly, something darts behind you, and your brain says “I’m feeling deceleration, so your foot is on the pedal that stops things” and you slam on it like you would the brake pedal. I’ve done it with the clutch/brake after hopping back and forth between a manual and automatic a few dozen times after a very long day of vehicle testing. Muscle memory is a powerful thing and your brain’s mental model of the world is not always correct.
No, I don’t see this at all. I suppose everyone is different but I fail to see how muscle memory if taking your foot off the pedal makes you press the same pedal. Those are opposite actions.
I definitely see the thing where you think you’re pressing the brake and don’t realize you’re on the wrong pedal so you press harder. That can happen on any car
personally i like to sit on my bike and just topple over, then start crying
Imagine if water spilled or leaked from the window onto the touchscreen, try using a wet smartphone… Could be touchscreen device malfunction or misclick causing the Tesla fatality
Good thing Teslas are known to not leak at all
I feel the sarcasm dripping from this comment…
it shatters into many tiny and dull pieces
Those pieces are not dull. They’re just not jagged and shaped like knives like normal glass. I accidentally broke the rear window on my truck and, thinking it was dull like you described, started to pick it up with my hands. Big mistake.
You just unlocked a very unpleasant memory of picking up small glass pieces with my hand. Like you said, big mistake and the worst was that I didn’t notice it was cutting at first…
One time I was climbing a rock in a park in Illinois, and reached up into a pile of finely-ground glass.
I managed to pick all but one little piece out of my fingers. That one piece was so far in I couldn’t get it.
Later on, I couldn’t find it. So I figured it had come out.
But a few weeks later my palm itched and that fucking piece of glass poked its way out of my palm.
AHHHHHHHH FUCK
Yeah, they’re absolutely sharp. But since they’re not point, you’ll end with a hundred tiny cuts, instead of a giant shard stabbing through your torso…
This is astroturfing.
The issue with Tesla has never been that the windows are hard to break. The issue is that the rear doors are electronic with manual override hidden in a camouflaged panel at the bottom of the door pocket. A door pocket that was added to hold things. Those things will block access to the emergency door open.
If you’re underwater you’re not gonna be able to open the doors without breaking the window unless there’s an explosive. But partially submerged when 20% of the door is still above water then yes it should be possible to still open the door
But partially submerged when 20% of the door is still above water then yes it should be possible to still open the door
Partially submerged, the door would be very hard to open, due to water pressure. The water pressure needs to fully equalized between the inside and outside of the car.
Did we learn nothing from Mythbusters?
I thought we were talking about manual override to pull the window down…
As Mythbusters proved, you wait until the car is almost full of water, and then open the door.
Not quite. There is a period where water pressure hasn’t built up enough to stop you. They were specifically testing pressure equalization, not that you should wait as a first course of action.
… Astroturfing… For who? Lol.
Someone important died drowning in a Tesla so it’s in the news. This story attempts to get the general population to think the problem is hard to break glass to deflect from Tesla’s design flaw.
Instead of, “Tesla has a serious design flaw that will trap passengers.” everyone is talking about, "all cars have hard to break windows.
It’s a strawman. No one has complained about hard to break glass windows. Emergency window hammers have been sold since the 1940’s. But people have been trying to bring Tesla’s unsafe doors to public attention.
Sheriff’s deputies even stood on top of it during the rescue efforts, trying to bust open a window.
I think it’s ok to let people know that the little window breaker doohickey they have stashed in their console for emergencies might not do shit if they have laminated windows (many newer cars).
There are lots of reasons this can be an issue outside of Tesla making shitty doors- a child or dog trapped in a hot car, an unresponsive/unconscious person, doors jammed during a crash and occupants are injured or unconscious.
If anything is being distracted from here, I think it’s probably that the woman may have been drunk. She was celebrating with old friends, it was after a late dinner. She was on a private road on an estate where it wouldn’t have been a crime to drink and drive. It’s easy to confuse forward and reverse in a Tesla, apparently, but she launched herself over an embankment and far enough into the middle of a pond that rescue workers didn’t have a long enough cable to reach the car. Most people don’t just floor it from the get go.
It’s one of the various factors.
The whole issue is that those window hammers won’t work as well with laminated windows, and now laminated windows are mandated. Maybe someone can point to data suggesting that the laminated windows are safer on average for some reason though.
Another is unintuitive door open versus emergency door open. First car I ever saw do that was a Corvette, and yes people have gotten trapped in those without knowing what to do either. At least older Tesla model got it right, the emergency open is opening it harder. Well except exterior handles not working on an emergency, which Cadillac lyric and mustang Mach e also get wrong.
Broadly speaking, also sticking all the features into touchscreen or capacitive touch is also a bad and industry wide trend, which Tesla is the poster child of taking it too far.
Also, early on cars were trying to figure out human factors of transmission, and safety problems caused “PRND” to be mandated. Now we had that actor killed by Chrysler’s fancy shifter, and Tesla also having a weird shifter that might have contributed to this accident.
Also you have the fact you had a pond near a car travel area with no fencing or guardrail. Another is the consequence of choosing to have a private 900 acre residence in a remote area and what that means for speed and quality of rescue attempts. So it’s not all about car design, but there are multi important factors to consider.
Also the thousands of non billionaire deaths we don’t specifically talk about have a lot to say about what we may do better
The fact they couldn’t break the window to get to her is the main talking point ive heard?
How is this not about Tesla still… It literally has Tesla in the title?
It’s stretch mate.
Reporting “It’s not just Tesla, 1/3 of all cars have windows that are impossible to break” makes people think the problem with Tesla isn’t the doors and many cars have the same problem.
If it was news that someone important died because they shifted wrong in their Tesla a misleading news report would be, “It’s not just Tesla, Toyota has a touch screen too.” Which completely misleads the reader into thinking Toyota has the shifter on the touchscreen like Tesla.
Tesla is the only manufacturer that sells a car without easy access to emergency open rear doors.
Control the narrative. Rich woman died. Tesla marketing team going on defense.
You see this a lot every time a Tesla kills somebody.
So what you are saying is that maybe you should read the fucking manual before piloting a two ton death machine at highway speeds?
When you bought your car did you physically check to see how the rear seatbelts are operated or did you assume they were standard because of safety standards?
People buy products assuming the minimum standard of safety that has been there for 50 years is still there.
On the model X that was involved in the drowning, no one should be expected to read the user manual to find out the door open latch is a pull string behind the speaker grill.
First of all, yes - I do believe that we should normalize knowing how to operate the safety systems in the cras we drive. It’s crazy to me that’s even controversial. I do actually read the manuals for all the cars I own.
But second, I think there is some confusion here. For the driver and front passenger, there is a clearly visible manual release on the door in the model X. It’s so prominent, most inexperienced users and guests believe it is the primary release The pull behind the speaker grill is the manual release for the rear seats.
So you’re saying that the people who need to read the manual are the people in the back seat?
You know, all those Tesla passengers who go out and buy a Tesla manual for some light reading just in case a friend or Uber driver ever happens to give them a ride?
Do you know how to open your back door if the child lock is enabled?
No, because I don’t enable the child lock and would be disturbed if I got in an Uber that had it enabled.
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On the other hand, an experienced driver might forget it’s there since they never use it. Add in a high-stress situation, and you get a problem.
No, I think he was saying that Tesla are shittily designed. To RTFM or not to RTFM doesn’t matter much when emergency equipment and controls are not easily accessible in an emergency
Good news for 2023 Honda HRV owners, because the rear glass shatters spontaneously on its own.
Kia/Hyundai from 2011 to 2022 have that beat with their entirely key less ignition and universal free ride share program.
Ironically, that only works on the models with a key ignition. Actually keyless has the immobilizer.
You’ll still get a free window opening from amateur thieves, though.
Better safe than sorry…
We need HARD rules and regulations for car door handles and common controls. This push for screens and lack physical elements needs to stop.
And Tesla, being the helpful sort, also makes it hard to open the doors in an emergency. The front might have manual door release mechanism somewhere - good luck finding it when the car is on fire or sinking. The rear… not so much.
EuroNCAP is changing its testing regime to negatively score manufacturers who remove critical physical controls and it should probably include door handles in that regime.
I feel they should outright ban them from sale, not just reduce the score.
I think NCAPs are not government institutions, but I agree that funding, oversight and more power to recall, and even ban the sale of vehicles, is ought to be given to them.
Not that I disagree with you generally, but in the recent case, manual door release wouldn’t have helped, as it’s basically impossible to push open a car door against the water pressure outside a submerged car.
Yes, you wait for pressure to equalize. But in a Tesla after pressure has equalized and you could open the rear door, the manual rear seat door open is a pull string under a camouflaged panel at the bottom of the door pocket. A door pocket that is probably filled with stuff because Tesla added the door pocket so you can put stuff in it.
It’s intentionally designed to be unsafe.
It was a model X. It’s hard to believe they would put door pockets in those falcon wing doors. They would spill every time you opened the door
Edit: looked it up. I found a video but it was two years old so things may be different now. I also don’t remember seeing how old the car in question was
For Model X
- front door latch is mechanical so continues working after loss of power
- back door has no pocket but it’s even worse. To get to emergency release of the back door you need to pull off the speaker grill and fish around for the cable
- it seemed like back windows on all Tesla’s are tempered glass, not laminated, so will shatter
It’s still possible to open it before the car submerges. It’s also possible to open it if you have the wherewithal to wait until the inside is nearly full. That’s providing you know where the damned release lever is. But if you’re panicking and pushing the electronic release and nothing happens then you’re going to die no matter what. Same too if the car is on fire or whatever.
The front door emergency latches are so intuitive everyone tries to use them the first time they’re in the car. There’s 0 problem with them.
The problem is the rear doors not having them or being hard to access.
On the other hand, if you never use the mechanical release and have spent a long time only driving your Tesla, wouldn’t it be possible to forget it’s there while in a high-stress situation?
Anything is possible, but I think this would be very unlikely.
Like on the level of I forgot to take my seat belt off and can’t figure out why I can’t get out.
Wasn’t it also the door opening mechanism was electronic and it stopped functioning once underwater?
Even a purely mechanical door can be extremely difficult to open when partially submerged. The pressure of the water will hold the door shut until the water equalizes on both sides of the door.
But yeah, once totally submerged and flooded an electric door likely won’t open while a mechanical one will.
Yup, that’s what I learned about being in a flooding car. Wait until it’s filled with water and you’ll be able to open the door since the pressure is equalized. But not having the option at all is bonkers, however someone else mentioned that tesla does have a manual lever, in which case it makes this whole debacle even more tragic and stupid.
There is apparently a manual lever hidden underneath the button, but that sure does seem like a bad design idea in an emergency.
I hate Tesla and traded mine in after only two months of ownership, but in no way is the lever hidden or not extremely obvious. In fact it is more obvious than the button. Several times I had passengers try to use the manual lever, which doesn’t lower the window when used. After the second person did it, moving forward I told every person who hadn’t been in my car before to use the button before getting out. Was one of the many reasons I traded it in.
But that’s because they were used to other cars. If you’re used to pressing the button, that’s where you’re gonna go in a panic. Fear basically shuts down higher thought processes so you act fast rather than carefully. So the same reflexive action you use to exit in normal circumstances would be the only thing you can conceive of if you’re on fire or drowning.
Another detail is that she was on the phone with people as she was sinking
So what happened with this woman dying, could she not pull the lever?
I have no idea. I wasn’t there and didn’t even know about it until right now. Door could have been jammed shut after the accident like any other door that firefighters keep their jaws of life for.
Yeah it likely sunk into mud thus rendering all the debate over water pressure and lever location mute.
There is apparently a manual lever hidden underneath the button,
“hidden”
It doesnt look marked to me. If someone saw a door like that they would have absolutely no idea that was a lever/button unless they read through the entire owner’s manual. Which let’s be honest, nobody does that these days.
Its not the best picture, but it also has finger holds underneath. For someone looking to pull something, this gets pulled.
Is a door handle ever marked?
Usually manual release safety levers or buttons have red or yellow markings on them, yes. Sometimes they have a logo or icon to denote what they open, and sometimes they are marked with “PULL TO OPEN” or some other similar phrase.
Interesting, I didn’t know that, I’ll have a look in my car next time I get in it.
Does that only apply to doors than normally have an electronic way of opening them?
Eh, I’ve seen plenty of internal trunk releases that are just an unmarked handle that pulls a cable…
I am a professional mechanic, worked at several dealers. Nearly every car had a safety mechanism that was at least one or several of those. The only ones I didnt mention are ones that glow in the dark for trunk releases. But outside of cars that were built before mechanical safety releases were commonly incorporated in design, its not common to see mechanical safety releases that are completely unmarked. Some have a plastic cover, like the transmission neutral release, but they still generally have red/yellow/orange markings, text on them, or they glow in the dark.
It could be a massive red lever with “EMERGENCY OPEN” text on it and the Tesla haters would still find something to complain about.
This is about the rear door. The rear door manual override is under the carpet here:
https://images.app.goo.gl/MTFkjk8JPUu4iK7n7
The most recent update added a red latch. It’s still in the bottom of the door pocket.
That’s the front. This is about the rear window. Show the rear door manual override.
Why would the driver of this car, which drowned, be sitting in the rear?
The title of the article is about passenger/rear seats being hard to break.
Fair point, and no the rear does not have manual release. I wish it it.
Now imagine you’ve been driving the Tesla for a long time and don’t ever use the manual release because you’re not supposed to so you don’t mess up the window. And then imagine you’re in a high-stress situation. That’s how having an unmarked backup can fail.
Plus, that handle doesn’t even look like a normal handle - I have never see a car where you pull up to exit instead of sideways away from the door.
shouldn’t emergency switch and latched be colored different.
yes
You’re not breaking a tempered glass without the designated tool either and almost nobody has that. There’s this famous clip of a news anchor demonstrating how “easy” it is to break a car window with a hammer and he needed like 8 attempts.
My algo shows me nonstop car break ins in the Bay area ( for some reason or another) and they have gloves and it’s amazing how quick they shatter.
Because they have special ceramic tools. Windows will always be incredibly easy for thieves to break with no effort, but they’re incredibly hard for people without specialized burglary tools to break.
Specialized tools oversells it. A chipped sparkplug will work.
Yeah, they’re nothing fancy, but that’s their sole purpose. People aren’t carrying around spark plugs unless they’re car thieves.
I’ve seen videos of them shattering when a coffee mug or spark plug hits them. Sometimes it takes a couple tries.
Ninja rocks, smash up a spark plug and the ceramic will annihilate car windows
I’d just like to point out that the same is true of your house. Your average deadbolt and doorknob can be defeated by a cordless drill in less than 30 seconds and with very little noise. Don’t ask me how I know :D
pretty insane that cars don’t just come with the tool already in a special holder at the bottom of the door “pockets”
like it would cost them dollars to do so, no one will notice if you just bake that into the price of the car and i do believe it’s generally considered a good idea to keep your customers alive so they can buy another car.
They’d go the way of the cheap little tire change kit, if the car even has a spare. Nobody would remember where it is, and it’s probably buried under whatever junk is stuffed in the pocket.
It pisses me off to no end that 2 of the 3 cars I’ve owned have not had a spare, but that shitty flat repair kit. Thankfully, the one time I needed a spare I had one, as the flat repair kit would have been worthless the day I clipped a curb on a turn and completely blew out my tire.
Fucking cheap asses making life harder for people…
Yep. The shrinkflation of cars. Cutting out extras like spares to save a buck. Yeah it’s weight that affects economy, but I don’t want to calculate the weight of a 40lb spare on gas consumption vs the cost of the tire or a tow service. FWIW the do make these little collapsible/inflatable spares that can fit in small spaces, but I’d be wary of them with some AWD cars. Can really F up the limited slip allowed in some of the systems.
FWIW the do make these little collapsible/inflatable spares that can fit in small spaces, but I’d be wary of them with some AWD cars.
That honestly sounds worse than using a donut, and the one car that came with a donut got it replaced with a full-sized spare because fuck donuts.
It’s better than no spare being the point. If it gets you somewhere better instead of being out $$ for a tow and waiting for the tow to show up. YMMV, though.
The one time I had to use a donut, it was plenty to get me to a tire shop. And because I changed the tire myself and was able to hand it to them, they were able to take care of it immediately even though their bays were full
It seems that you don’t know the lengths auto makers will go to save litteral cents on a model line. Adding dollars is absolutely not something done lightly.
Doesn’t cost dollars, literally cents. A tiny hard rock super glued to the key fob should be enough to shatter the tempered glass
Yes, but remember that you’re dealing with MBAs who make it their sole purpose to save pennies. Pennies saved on a few million cars equals more than their salary, which means they keep their job. So fuck a few people dying.
I don’t know how common they actually are, but I see car window breaker & seatbelt cutter gizmos being sold all over the place. I know I keep one in my car where I can easily get to it, though my car emergency kit is probably better stocked than most people’s, and most first responders also have them in their kit.
Also an automatic center punch will usually do the trick as well, it’s a fairly common tool, though in an emergency it may not be practical to go rooting through your toolbox to find one.
I have one on my pocket knife that goes with me almost everywhere.
Why did they switch to laminated in the side and rear windows?
Sound dampening. Common feature on high trim cars or electric vehicles.
Thanks.
Let me guess, it’s probably also heavier.
We have a 2020 Mazda 3 that probably has that, instead of useful features like a remote start or fog lights. I’ve found that I much prefer driving my car from 1999 or even our pickup from 2014 (which itself has double gaskets on the doors for sound isolation). The Mazda feels like I’m in this isolated chamber with no road feel or anything from outside encroaching. If that’s luxury, count me out.
Mazda used to get a lot of shit from car reviewers about road noise and started really beefing up their sound dampening to make it more “refined” starting around 2016 or 2017.
Ah. I could go into a whole rant about the car, but I really dislike driving it. I often say that I now understand why Mazda no longer uses “zoom zoom” in their commercials.
Anyone know of a reasonable tool that can get through laminated glass and be kept near the drivers seat?
In the states? Gun.
Rest of the world? Crowbar?
A “Glass-Master” is what I used in the fire service. Goes a lot faster than you would think.
They make safety glass shatter tools and they usually also come with seatbelt cutters attached to them as well. Looks like a really large, sharp ballpoint pen tip.
These don’t work on laminated glass.
I thought ‘victorinox rescue tool’ works for laminated glass. It even has glass cutter.
vixtorinox (swiss army) rescue tool. It’s a locked knife - most probably illegal in many places.
I would guess you could use a regular tool for breaking a normal window, then cut through the plastic with a sturdy knife. Not great to need two tools in an emergency though, and keeping a combat knife in your glove box might raise some eyebrows.
Unfortunately, being difficult to get through is the whole point
Use the same type of glass tool as before to shatter it. Then just push it out of the way. It’s still the same glass. It just stays held together with the plastic.
Will that work when you’re submerged underwater and the pressure of the water is pushing against the glass?
Instead of pushing out, the water pressure will make it fold in on its own after you crack it.
The recommended (and slightly terrifying) advice is to let the car fill first. Basically, use the time and air to prepare yourself. When the car fills, the pressure will equalise, and you can push the windscreen out with your feet.
Unfortunately, unless you’ve thought it through beforehand, most people panic.
I would assume that when shattered it becomes flexible so you can move it out of the way
Small bits of ceramic, like from a broken spark plug easily shatter any tempered glass even when thrown lightly. https://www.jdpower.com/cars/shopping-guides/why-do-spark-plugs-break-windows
They asked about laminated glass not tempered glass.
Laminated, not just tempered. There’s a strong layer of plastic inside the window. Even if you shatter the glass you still can’t get out.
I guess those vehicles’ drivers should always roll down their windows when near bodies of water in case they go in
Unsafe back seat passenger exit starts earlier than that, my 2005 Saturn had a set of horrible doors. I avoided carrying more than one passenger as often as possible.
Your 2005 Saturn didn’t have electronic locks that failed when the 800Volt battery pack touches water.
The number of Tesla drivers getting locked in and dying is disturbing. Who puts a safety critical electronic only lock tied to the main battery pack? Tesla, that’s who.
Fire? Your electronic locks fail and you die. Water? Same same. Etc. Etc.
Keep ranting, but the door locks run off of the 12v.
Is there a separate 12v battery, or are the 12v bits run from a dc-dc converter powered by the high voltage system?
There is a separate 12v that gets recharged by the HV.
It have suicide doors? God I miss those. Terrible for passenger safety, but I could fit so much stuff into my ion with those. Made moving with a sedan so much easier.
The reason Tesla was in the news over this was because a rich lady reversed into a pond. So the rear windows wouldn’t be facing up in that situation…
